When Justin Kinner sits in the host seat today for his daily show at ESPN WING 1410 in Dayton, he’ll be approximately 79 miles from Ohio Stadium in Columbus, the home of the Buckeyes, and 57 miles from Paul Brown Stadium in Cincinnati, the home of the Bengals. Literally, he’s smack dab in the middle of one of the most popular college football programs in the country, as well as an NFL franchise with a large following.
In many ways, Dayton is a melting pot for various sports fans throughout the state of Ohio. The Buckeyes will always be the biggest news in the state, but the Browns, Bengals, Reds, Indians, Cavs and even Steelers all have a loyal following where Kinner calls home. Sure, that’s a blessing when considering you’re never short of topics, but also a challenge for a host, seeing as you have to be knowledgeable on several teams across the state.
Not only has Kinner accepted that challenge, he relishes the opportunity to do so. The once shy and quiet kid in high school that wasn’t outgoing, has now blossomed into an afternoon drive host, as well as the program director for ESPN WING 1410. The funny thing, is none of Kinner’s high school classmates foresaw him becoming a sports radio personality. At the time, it was a fair assumption, seeing as the business is normally reserved for more outgoing personalities. Kinner was anything but. But as a student at Wright State, he caught the sports radio fever while doing a show with the student radio station. It didn’t take him long to realize this was the career path he wanted to choose.
Anyone that’s ever went to college has skipped at least one class. We’re all human, right? Some of us did it because Thirsty Thursday at the local bar was too great of a time to reach that 8 a.m. class the next day. Some of us overslept from time to time, while others just woke up and realized they had better options that day than to attend class.
Whatever and how many of those excuses you used, skipping class one day ended up being one of the most important days of Kinner’s life. A big final was approaching and Kinner felt he needed more time to study for an exam in another class. So, he skipped one class to study for another. A really responsible excuse for not going, if you ask me. However, while sitting in his student radio office, an employee of the local ESPN radio affiliate in town walked in and asked if anyone was interested in doing fill in work for the station. Like a miracle happening right before his eyes, this was the opportunity he couldn’t pass up. Without any hesitation, Kinner jumped at the opportunity.
If it wasn’t for skipping class, Kinner would have never been in the situation to accept an offer from ESPN WING 1410. Conversely, he admits that he probably wouldn’t be in sports radio if that situation didn’t occur. Anyone believe things happen for a reason?
Shortly after, Kinner’s radio career began by doing part-time work at the station, which got him into sales. His workload consisted of hosting a Sunday morning show, high school football games and being the No. 1 fill-in for shows during the week. He was doing it all at the station and proving his worth as a valuable commodity to the company. His first break had already come, the second, was to come shortly after.
As such things happen in the business, the PD job at ESPN 1410 came open right when Kinner was starting to make a name for himself at the station. Maybe it was because he was already doing on-air work, maybe it was because he proved his worth early on. Maybe it was several reasons, regardless, Kinner was ultimately named program director at ESPN 1410. The once shy kid in high school had shocked everyone. Not only was he doing on-air work, he was now also making major decisions that influenced a radio station.
Today, you can hear Kinner on his show ‘Kinner and Schlemmer’ from 3-6 p.m. on ESPN 1410. The balance of covering several teams in the area is a challenge, but Kinner discusses how to appease the masses and still stay relevant, when you’re jammed in between two larger markets.
TM: How does the dynamic of being smack in the middle of Columbus and Cincinnati work? Do the Buckeyes or Bengals get more of your attention?
JK: Let’s not forget the Browns, because somehow, the Browns sneaked their way into this conversation. The one thing I love about doing a show in Dayton is the fact we’re Cincinnati Reds affiliate, we’re a Buckeye affiliate, so we get to talk about more than just one city full of teams.
But Ohio State rules everything around here. We’re in the heart of Buckeye Country. But with that being said, it’s the flavor of the day, whatever the big topic is, obviously with the Ohio State and Urban Meyer investigation, that’s just dominated sports talk around here. But on Monday, we did a show that the Browns and Bengals carried for three hours.
TM: I think most people recognize the Dayton Flyers as a good hoops program that are always in the mix for the NCAA Tournament. Is their football team though ever a big topic of conversation, seeing as you have the NFL and a major college football program so close?
JK: Rick Chamberlain is the Flyers’ head football coach, we have him on every Tuesday. He comes on, but it’s not like it’s a hot button topic. We just like to make sure we massage a lot of the local teams, whether they have a big following or not. But as far as college basketball, UD is as big in this town, basketball wise, as Ohio State football. The Buckeyes still get the nod, but UD basketball is a very close second.
TM: How much does your show change from football to basketball season? Are you full tilt UD hoops as well as everyone else in the conference?
JK: Oh yeah. There’s two D1 teams here in the city. It’s the greatest rivalry never played, at least here for a local topic, Wright State and UD. It’s the biggest rivalry that never comes to fruition on the court, because the argument of, oh, UD is too good to play Wright State, what would be the advantage of even playing them?
We do talk a lot of college basketball, just about how UD is doing, we look at the Atlantic 10, we look at Wright State, but a lot of times, we’re still talking heavy NFL during that time.
TM: What makes the Dayton market unique and something other sports talk radio personalities would be surprised to find out?
JK: To start, the most unique thing about the Dayton market is the fact that we have a lot of strong fan bases from various teams. You could even argue there’s a heavy Steelers fan base in this area, which is crazy. It’s just cool to not be handicapped on talking about one city full of teams. To me, I think that’s helped me as a host, because I’ve been able to rub by elbows with a lot of various topics and different teams. Whereas, if I just had a show in Cincinnati, it would just be about the Reds and Bengals.
Most people would look at a city with no pro sports team or high level power 5 program and think, wow, how boring is that? Dayton does not fit that narrative. I would put Dayton’s basketball fans up against any basketball (Pro or college) fan base in the country. Dayton is the host city for the NCAA First Four tournament, the host city for the ‘Flyin’ To The Hoop’ HS basketball showcase (2nd largest National HS Basketball showcase in the country), & two D1 college basketball programs. Dayton is a very passionate sports city.
TM: If you ever were to leave Dayton, how much do you think it would help you down the road having worked in a city where you’ve had to talk just about every single sport?
JK: I’m not going to say it’s hard to do a show here, it’s definitely not. I think the more topics you have make it easier. But, at the same time, I can’t be a pretend Browns analyst, because if I don’t know my stuff, there’s a heavy fan base that’s listening and going to call me out.
The main teams we talk about are the Bengals, Reds and Buckeyes, but there’s a lot of other fans that trickle in with other teams. If you try to pretend you know the other teams when you don’t, you don’t come across as credible to your listeners. But it does help me. If I sit down in an interview in another city or market, I can say I was able to balance a lot of teams in other various cities, as well as being able to deliver the local teams in the market. I think it’s definitely prepared me for whatever my next job would be.
TM: What do game day weekends look like for your station, seeing as you’re so keyed in on the Buckeyes and Bengals? Do you go to either of the two cities to do pregame shows?
JK: In my mind, just because we talk Buckeyes, Reds and Bengals, that doesn’t mean we have to go to Cincinnati, Columbus or Cleveland for the Browns to make it happen. As many that are in our city, that’s very important to me, in realizing that, okay, they’re not the Dayton Browns or the Dayton Buckeyes but there’s a ton of Ohio State and NFL fans here.
A lot of people that live in Dayton, rather than them having to go to Columbus or Cincinnati to enjoy those experiences, I make sure we do local Buckeye pregame shows at a sports bar. We do watch parties. Former Ohio State Buckeye Keith Byars, who nearly won a Heisman in the 80’s, he does a show with us and we do watch parties with him. The diehard Ohio State fan that lives in Dayton can now experience the thrill of game day, right here.
TM: Tell me about your show.
JK: My co-host has been called an ancient curmudgeon and I’ve been called a clueless millennial. The gap in age has brought two different generations of sports fans together and it definitely provides you with a very entertaining 3 hour show with screaming, laughter, happiness and at times anger.
As a member of the local media always says when calling into the show. “The Knuckle Head factor has just got taken to another level.” It’s a very interactive call in show. Some of our callers have been tagged with nicknames over the years. You will hear names such as “Back Porch”, “Porkchop”, “The Comrade”, “Wrestling Guru”, “The SEC Commissioner” & so on. At times, they are almost like part time characters that add to the fun of the show.
Sports Are Learning To Meet Gen Z Where They Are
“The crux of the issue is that Gen Z is the first generation of kids who are truly free to find their “thing” in a way previous generations never could thanks to modern connectivity.”
Should sports radio be concerned about where audiences will come from in the future? It is an interesting question that we talk about here a lot. It is also something that the New York Times tackled indirectly last week.
A column from Joe Drape and Ken Belson declared this generation of kids “The eSports Generation” and went on to explain just how disconnected from traditional sports they really are.
An alarmist might ask if this is the beginning of the end of traditional sports leagues. Someone a little more level-headed, like Joe Ovies, may want to dive a little deeper to see what leagues are learning and how they are adapting.
Joe hosts The OG in afternoon drive at 99.9 The Fan in Raleigh. He is always interested in how changes in technology and consumption patterns effect sports and his audience. I saw him tweeting about the New York Times piece last week and asked if he would want to write a little something for us.
“Meet your audience where they are.”
How many times have you heard that phrase in the last 5 years from a consultant, manager, or any number of Barrett Media posts as content consumption trends continue to spread out over a variety of platforms? Turns out the same applies for pro sports leagues, who are fearful that an entire generation of fans will be lost and their traditional business model will crater as a result.
The New York Times recently highlighted what sports marketers are doing to win over Generation Z, which typically applies to kids born from 1997 to 2012. The Times hits the usual beats.
There’s a reference to Tyler “Ninja” Blevins, an esports star who is also a traditional sports fan, who the NFL hoped would be a Pied Piper for youth fandom. There are examples of MLB, famously stingy when it came to fans using their content on social media, now working with TikTok influencers. And of course, highlighting the NBA’s wide ranging approach to online engagement and their franchise run NBA 2K esports league. Most of the article was based on a recent SSRS/Luker on Trends report, which conducts regular surveys about sports and society.
The issue for pro sports leagues isn’t that Gen Z kids aren’t “passionate” enough about sports. It’s that Gen Z is more likely to admit they simply don’t like sports.
“Only 23 percent of Generation Z said they were passionate sports fans, compared with the 42 percent of millennials (defined as 26 to 41), 33 percent of Generation X (42 to 57) and 31 percent of baby boomers (57 to 76) who identified themselves as passionate. More striking was that 27 percent of Gen Zers said they disliked sports altogether, compared with just 7 percent of millennials, 5 percent of Gen Xers and 6 percent of boomers.”The new york times, Jan. 12, 2022
Also factoring into the waning interest in sports from Gen Z is the dramatic decline of youth sports participation. There is a larger discussion to be had about the role of parents and specialization in this decline, but we can address that topic another day. As it relates to pro sports leagues today, the drop in youth participation absolutely impacts the level of interest in kids who might want to watch the best in the world of sports do their thing.
“Participation in youth sports was declining even before Covid-19: In 2018, only 38 percent of children ages 6 to 12 played team sports on a regular basis, down from 45 percent in 2008, according to the Sports & Fitness Industry Association.
In June 2020, the pandemic’s early days, 19 percent of parents with kids in youth sports said their child was not interested in playing sports, according to a survey conducted by The Aspen Institute’s Sports and Society Program. By September 2021, that figure was 28 percent.
On average, children play less than three years in a sport and quit by age 11, according to the survey. Why? Mostly, because it is not fun anymore.”the New york times, Dec. 19th 2021
The crux of the issue is that Gen Z is the first generation of kids who are truly free to find their “thing” in a way previous generations never could thanks to modern connectivity. Meeting up on the playground or at a friend’s backyard for a pickup game has been replaced with meeting your friends on a Discord server and deciding if you’re going to play Halo or Call or Duty after school.
If you have kids in the age range that I do, none of this should be a surprise. You see it every day and don’t even think twice about it. But if you do stop and think about how frictionless it has become to be online all day with your friends, you start to realize the impact of never being bored or getting dragged to things by your parent because there were no other options.
Watching sports and going to sporting events isn’t frictionless. It’s a pain in the ass. Older generations deal with it because we don’t know any better, it’s just what we do. But Gen Z isn’t about to stop what they’re doing just to watch a game. Why would they? They can get the highlights later.
Gen Z is about dropping in and out of entertainment options whenever they feel like it. In other words, why would they sit around waiting for their favorite song to be played on the radio when they can easily pull it up on YouTube or Spotify.
Pro sports leagues can create all the social content and tout billions of views. They can tout engagement with Gen Z because a bunch of kids bought NFL related skins in Fortnite.
Awareness of their leagues isn’t the problem. It’s getting Gen Z to care enough to watch the game. Take my kids, who are fully aware of what’s going on in the world of sports, but getting them to sit down and actually watch the game is torture. Throw in the increasing cost to attend sporting events, I’ve started leaving them at home because it’s a waste of money given my 13-year-old is just gonna play Clash Royale in that $75 seat.
To be clear — I’m OK with my kids just not being into sports. It’s not like I didn’t try. It’s simply understanding we’ve transitioned to a world of niche communities. You can still thrive within those niche communities. Just look at sports talk radio as an example, where you’re not winning with cume, but with passion around sports. That’s what great sports talk radio stations sell. Pro sports leagues will be fine doing the same.
How Soon Is Too Soon To Lean Into The NFL Draft?
“I think there will be even more hype and content leading up to Draft than last year.”
For sports talk hosts, nothing generates content quite like the NFL Playoffs. The country’s most popular sport inches closer each week to crowning a champion. Each game produces an unlikely hero, a questionable call or some other storyline that can generate an entire show’s worth of conversation. Around the country, most stations talking about football are talking about the playoffs.
There is a select group of markets though where it makes sense for the football conversation to be driven by something else. Sure, the playoffs are on the radar, but if you are in a market with a top five draft pick, it makes sense that prospects and potential trades will draw significant interest.
Houston is not completely ignoring the playoffs. Landry Locker, co-host of In The Loop on Sports Radio 610 says that just like everywhere else in the country, NFL football is the headliner.
“We cover the NFL Playoffs top-to-bottom whether the Texans are in or not,” he told me. “However, just like all of our content we try to localize it as much as possible and try to respect the fact that we are a local show. Why do Houstonians care about what happened in each Wild Card game? What are the local ties?”
And what about the NFL Draft? The Texans have the third pick. That means there are plenty of discussions worth having on air, especially with the local team being so quarterback-needy.
I asked Landry if the lack of a Trevor Lawrence or Joe Burrow has dulled interest in the draft for Texans fans compared to what it could have been.
“I think there will be even more hype and content leading up to Draft than last year. While this QB class isn’t as good as last year’s the speculation about Russell Wilson, Aaron Rodgers and Deshaun Watson make up for that void because if any of those three are traded it will likely be before the Draft. The NFL offseason has become the most active in sports and this year’s will be as wild as ever, especially here in Houston with the Watson drama.”
Ryan Green, better known to Jacksonville sports fans as Hacker on 1010XL, is in a familiar position. Just last year, he and his colleagues on XL Primetime were talking about the Jaguars welcoming a new coach to town and holding the first pick in the draft. By the time the NFL Draft gets here in April, the Jaguars will be holding the first pick as they welcome a new coach to town. So how does Hacker ensure that this year’s conversations don’t sound like 2021’s conversations on air?
“We will discuss what went wrong last year and how not to duplicate that this time around,” he said. “Why did last year fail? What could have been done differently and what needs to be different this time around. Also the history of back-to-back No. 1 picks for teams isn’t good, how can the Jaguars succeed when so many others have failed.”
Having the first pick of draft is great when you have the chance to grab the quarterback that can change your franchise’s fortunes. But the Jaguars experienced that last year and they have the top pick again.
Hacker said it perfectly. Last year was a failure for the Jaguars. Does that make his listeners a little less enthusiastic this time around?
Yes, he says. Last year was such a let down that there is a whole series of conversations fans want to have before they are ready to start breaking down prospects.
“Jaguar fans want the coaching and gm hires to be correct or the picks won’t matter anyway. Coaching matters and the Jaguar fans have had to endure a lot of bad coaching over the past decade. They want the right coach, then they will focus on the top pick”
Draft talk is fun. As Brandon Kravitz pointed out in his column earlier this week, it is a chance for fans of bad teams to feel real hope. Hope is the word right now in Houston too.
Locker says that there are so many factors that make this offseason one that Texans fans have been waiting three years for. His plan is to devote as much time to draft talk as possible.
“Obviously that’s fluid depending on what happens with the Stros and Rockets,” he says, “but this is going to be the wildest offseason in Texans franchise history. This will be the first time the Texans have had a first round selection in three drafts and with the possibility of getting even more compensation for Watson and a new coach it’s going to be nuts around here.”
It seems weird to type this, but Jacksonvillians know it is true. Hope can get old sometimes. When it is all you have ever been served, hope just doesn’t hit the same.
Hacker jokes that he and his co-workers know their way around a show rundown this time of year because this time of year never seems to end for the Jags.
“Draft talk for Jacksonville always starts around Thanksgiving, so we are already a month into draft talk before the playoffs even get here.”
Your Only Focus Should Be On What You Can Control
“We can’t press a Staples easy button and automatically make the audience more active, the sales team more diligent, or the editors gather every piece of sound.”
The crybaby Cowboys are at it again. After Dallas lost its Wild Card playoff game to the San Francisco 49ers 23-17 on Sunday, there was plenty of blame and finger pointing. Big D’s fingers weren’t pointed at themselves and their ugly run defense, shaky quarterback play, and inability to avoid committing stupid penalties, right?
No no, it’s far easier to just blame the officials. Let’s shine a light on those guys instead!
The controversy occurred at the very end of the game. As the Cowboys trailed by six points with 14 seconds remaining, quarterback Dak Prescott rushed up the middle of the field for 17 yards. As Chris Berman would say, “Tick, tick tick tick tick.” Precious seconds were ticking away as umpire Ramon George rushed over to spot the football. Once Prescott spiked the ball to stop the clock, the final seconds had ticked away and the Cowboys lost the game.
Prescott said in his postgame press conference that the official “needs to be closer to the ball” to spot it more quickly, and the result of that not happening was “tough to accept.” When asked about fans throwing beer bottles and trash at the officiating crew, Prescott said, “Credit to them then. Credit to them.”
Wow, dude. Really? Hooray for assault? Cowboys head coach Mike McCarthy chimed in by saying, “We shouldn’t have had any problem getting the ball spotted there.”
This might be news to the Cowboys, but not every NFL official is going to have blazing speed mixed with the agility of a ballet dancer. The offense needs to allow enough time just in case the umpire doesn’t resemble a Cirque du Soleil performer. The Cowboys failed to do that.
The Cowboys also made a huge mistake in the final two minutes. Defensive end Randy Gregory drew a defensive holding penalty for bear hugging and tackling a 49ers offensive lineman. That stupid penalty directly impacted the limited time the Cowboys had at the end of the game. Prescott also had an awful 69.3 passer rating. For context, Dak’s 69.3 passer rating against the Niners was actually lower than the abysmal 69.7 passer rating New York Jets rookie quarterback Zach Wilson produced this season. Yuck.
But it’s someone else’s fault. Right, Cowboys? That’s what losers do; they point the finger at others.
For the Cowboys to make the loss about the officials is flat-out embarrassing. They spent more time whining about things they can’t control (officiating) compared to what they can control (their own performance).
The same thing happens in sports radio. A lot. Many people in the industry are consumed by what they can’t control rather than what they can. Several hosts focus on the time slot they want or the job they think they should have. News flash: that isn’t controllable. It’s also easy to complain about a lack of advertisers or sponsors, why listener engagement isn’t better with more calls and tweets, or why some postgame sound is missing on the cut sheet.
“We don’t have the sound? How do we not have the sound? Everybody else has it. How are we missing the same sound that all of the other shows have?”
MacGyver it, dude. Find another way. Focus on what you can control instead of what you can’t. As Patriots head coach Bill Belichick says, “Do your job.”
The truth is that there are a lot of things in sports radio that workers want to control, might even think they should control, but don’t actually dictate. We can’t press a Staples easy button and automatically make the audience more active, the sales team more diligent, or the editors gather every piece of sound. But we can focus our attention on many things we do have control over.
Former NFL head coach Jon Gruden once gave some great advice. Before he was known for his emailing ways, Gruden hosted the successful QB camp series on ESPN. I’ll never forget an episode with former Miami Hurricanes quarterback Brad Kaaya. The QB told Gruden, “It’s tough when each week you’re thinking, ‘Man, if I don’t play well, if I don’t throw for this many yards, if we don’t win, my coach might not be here the very next week.’ It’s tough on me ‘cause you spend time around these coaches, you meet the families, meet the kids, coach [Al] Golden recruited me. You grow close to him.”
Gruden stopped Kaaya and said, “Make this note here; worry about what you can control. Don’t worry about the things you can’t control. Because if you do start worrying about things that are out of your control, you’re going to become a freakin’ basket case like me.”
I love this advice. It’s so easy to get off track by focusing our energy in the wrong areas. The funny thing is that our thoughts might start in a good place but lead to a bad outcome. Kaaya was worried about his coach’s job status and family. That’s reasonable, but by doing so it added unnecessary pressure to the situation and shifted the QB’s focus to things he can’t control. That isn’t a good result.
I think it’s smart to constantly be aware of whether something is helping or hurting your ability to perform.
A lot of people in the sports radio industry are competitive maniacs. That isn’t automatically a bad thing at all. Being super competitive can fuel a great work ethic and provide a valuable edge. However, it can evolve into a roadblock once you become a bitter, competitive maniac. That’s a different story. The bitter competitive maniac becomes jaded, frustrated, and hung up on what other people have. How is any of that helpful? It’s much better to stay focused on things that help you do a good job, not get in the way of it happening.
The Cowboys couldn’t control whether the official spotted the ball faster or not, but they could’ve allowed more time in case the umpire wasn’t Usain Bolt 2.0. They had plenty of control over surrendering fewer than 169 yards rushing to San Fran and Prescott having a much better day. But the crybaby Cowboys will whine and whine instead of being more accountable.
Don’t be like them. Instead of focusing on what you can’t control, take a closer look at what you actually can control.
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